Of the entertainers, it was the rock star who first fell from grace. It was a long time ago. We were shocked, but then we realised that he had been on the road. He had performed night after night. And part of that lifestyle was drugs. It was a different life to ours. One we don’t understand. Drugs take their toll. He was alone in the world, on the road, when he fell from grace. Then the film star had their private life exposed. We were shocked. But then we realised how tempted he must have been. The teenagers thought he was a god. We thought about the pressures, and how young he was. There was a lack of guidance. Then the older film star fell from grace. We were surprised. But then we realised how difficult and empty his personal life had become. Then the TV presenter fell from grace. We were worried. Because he was not a rock star. And not so pursued and pressured. Perhaps he partied too much. And then, the newsreader fell from grace. And with the newsreader, our well-worn explanations, today, are really starting to show holes.
What excellent insight! Loved this read on the psychology of celebrity and why it’s not really that shocking. It’s more shocking that we are surprised.
Curious, is this inspired by Huw Edwards? I’m an ex-pat only intermittently keeping up with Blighty news but did hear about him ostensibly getting a slap on the wrist.
Hi Colette, yes newsreader Huw Edwards was recently convicted of obtaining child pornography. I havent looked at his life and situation in any detail but it got me thinking about the issue generally. Another UK TV presenter was in the news last week.
Ah ok I didn’t hear about the other one (yet). A question I’m wondering about…I’ve been hearing about people being required to serve jail time for basically memes and social media posts. While someone convicted with child pornography gets off with no jail time. Do you think situations like this will begin to burst the bubble of adoration and idealization of celebrity figures? I’m curious how the central thesis of your work runs alongside a growing sense in society that there’s a crisis of confidence in the professional managerial class. I ask this because the PMC (of which I suppose I am a part myself) seems to have fallen prey to influencer culture like everything else, including the media. Maybe there is more cerebral narcissism in the PMC than the somatic narcissism of other types of celebrities? And newsreaders, I wonder if they sort of straddle the divide between celebrities and the knowledge brokers of the PMC? Curious your take on this.
Ok so some roles will specifically select for cerebral/ intellectual narcissism - such as politics. But Im not sure that, say, Boris Johnson and John Lennon, or Tupac are quite as different psychologically as they appear. One has chosen the persona of a politician. But looking at gheir biographies i think Lennon and Tupac were quite intellectuall preocupied and very able intellectually. Some wanted Tupac in politics. The difference is partly that being intellectual didnt fit with either Tupac’s gangster persona or Lennon’s working class rebel persona (Lennon’s working class accent was actually fake). I also wonder whether some of Marilyn Monroe’s ‘dumb blond’ persona was fake. i think there is somatic narcissism. But i think its not always what it looks like based on persona. I think thats kind of interesting.
Yes definitely. There was less resistance to Tupac going into music than going into acting or politics. Although his mother was political and a leader, she had had some very bad experiences including betrayal and lots of racism. Both Lennon's natural parents were very musical. There was no president for anything else.
Tbh i dread to think why some get a 6 month suspended sentence and some get jail term. I hope it has nothing to do with the lawyer budget involved.
I think im still finding out what it is im really concerned about. I think its partly the criteria we use to choose our leaders, influencers and people to inspire us. I am concerned that we choose, in a sense, to be love bombed - by leaders as well as entertainers. And i think we are at risk of being taken in some really unhealthy directions as a result. Cases like Savile dont seem to break a bubble. Although he was clearly an outlier, all cases seem to get treated as an exception or we respond as a desensitized society.
That’s also really interesting your point about us choosing to be love-bombed by our leaders. What does that say about us, I wonder. I’m feeling like the last four years may have really pierced the veil on a lot of things…
I would like to point out that isn't true of all people, because there are plenty of so called stars who chose to leave the limelight and plenty of so called rock stars who never left a legacy of excess (Jon Bon Jovi as an example). I believe it is a combination of the personality of the person as well as any other factors such as childhood trauma and the like. I feel like people don't acknowledge that narcissism and psychopathy can happen without trauma ever happening. Look at Ted Bundy, He came from a good home with all the material resources that anyone could ever want, he went to an Ivy League school and became a lawyer. Even with all that going for him he still turned out to be a killer. Sometimes there isn't a reason why. I feel sometimes life is just unpredictable and some people can just be bad people without having a neat explanation.
Thanks Donovan for your comment. Yes it is complex and i tried here to highlight an inceased risk in the famous - not so much a prediction that all have this kind of blind spot or weakness. Yes there will also be genetics. And i am not trying to excuse perpetrator behaviour. If we decide that some people are just bad, with only nature and no nurture, then we have to find another way to figure out why the entertainment industry can be so good at attracting dramatic perpetrator behaviour.
I think its risky to say that if someone grows up materially wealthy, and even with the family in tact, and a good school, that this means emotionally, they are not traumatised. I think there are people from wealthy backgrounds who would challenge this idea. I havent read about Ted Bundy. But another comment recently mentioned that untill he was a teenager, he was led to believe his mother was actually his sister. This doesnt sound like a typical childhood. But i would be interested to learn more about him.
I’ve spent 20 years working in prisons with men who had committed the most serious violent and sexually violent crimes and who were considered to be psychopaths and not met one who had a normal upbringing. What we did find is that men were much slower to disclose their vulnerabilities than women and questions had to be asked in quite open, emotionally neutral ways to elicit the information. We compared what we knew on arrival and what we knew after they’d established relationships with a trauma informed therapist and found significantly different histories. It’s submitted for publication but in a nutshell it’s preferable to ask questions like “what would happen when you did something wrong as a child?” Rather than “were you physically abused?” . Most people, and especially perhaps narcissists, want to believe that their parents loved them as children so it’s preferable to present their family and upbringing as good and loving than to acknowledge that they “weren’t lovable” (the child’s perspective)
Thanks Octopus Psychology. Really helpful having expert responses and comparisons on here. Thats really interesting. The difficulty with saying “I was abused” betrays a difficulty perhaps with self compassion - connecting to own vulnerability. Saying what happened might be easier than saying you were hurt. It is unpopular in mainstream discussions to say that narcissism contains a lack of compassion for self as well as others, but psych theories tend to say otherwise. Your paper sounds interesting and practically helpful. Let me know when its out.
What excellent insight! Loved this read on the psychology of celebrity and why it’s not really that shocking. It’s more shocking that we are surprised.
Curious, is this inspired by Huw Edwards? I’m an ex-pat only intermittently keeping up with Blighty news but did hear about him ostensibly getting a slap on the wrist.
Hi Colette, yes newsreader Huw Edwards was recently convicted of obtaining child pornography. I havent looked at his life and situation in any detail but it got me thinking about the issue generally. Another UK TV presenter was in the news last week.
Ah ok I didn’t hear about the other one (yet). A question I’m wondering about…I’ve been hearing about people being required to serve jail time for basically memes and social media posts. While someone convicted with child pornography gets off with no jail time. Do you think situations like this will begin to burst the bubble of adoration and idealization of celebrity figures? I’m curious how the central thesis of your work runs alongside a growing sense in society that there’s a crisis of confidence in the professional managerial class. I ask this because the PMC (of which I suppose I am a part myself) seems to have fallen prey to influencer culture like everything else, including the media. Maybe there is more cerebral narcissism in the PMC than the somatic narcissism of other types of celebrities? And newsreaders, I wonder if they sort of straddle the divide between celebrities and the knowledge brokers of the PMC? Curious your take on this.
Ok so some roles will specifically select for cerebral/ intellectual narcissism - such as politics. But Im not sure that, say, Boris Johnson and John Lennon, or Tupac are quite as different psychologically as they appear. One has chosen the persona of a politician. But looking at gheir biographies i think Lennon and Tupac were quite intellectuall preocupied and very able intellectually. Some wanted Tupac in politics. The difference is partly that being intellectual didnt fit with either Tupac’s gangster persona or Lennon’s working class rebel persona (Lennon’s working class accent was actually fake). I also wonder whether some of Marilyn Monroe’s ‘dumb blond’ persona was fake. i think there is somatic narcissism. But i think its not always what it looks like based on persona. I think thats kind of interesting.
Yeah that is interesting! I never thought of it that way. I wonder if it’s some amount of opportunism - like, the right persona at the right time.
Yes definitely. There was less resistance to Tupac going into music than going into acting or politics. Although his mother was political and a leader, she had had some very bad experiences including betrayal and lots of racism. Both Lennon's natural parents were very musical. There was no president for anything else.
Tbh i dread to think why some get a 6 month suspended sentence and some get jail term. I hope it has nothing to do with the lawyer budget involved.
I think im still finding out what it is im really concerned about. I think its partly the criteria we use to choose our leaders, influencers and people to inspire us. I am concerned that we choose, in a sense, to be love bombed - by leaders as well as entertainers. And i think we are at risk of being taken in some really unhealthy directions as a result. Cases like Savile dont seem to break a bubble. Although he was clearly an outlier, all cases seem to get treated as an exception or we respond as a desensitized society.
Is PMC PubMedCentral?
That’s also really interesting your point about us choosing to be love-bombed by our leaders. What does that say about us, I wonder. I’m feeling like the last four years may have really pierced the veil on a lot of things…
That’s a good point about Saville. An unwillingness to see this as more common than we’re comfortable allowing ourselves to see.
The PMC is an acronym for the professional managerial class, sorry :) If you’re not familiar with the term, this article gives more info. It was coined by Barbara Ehrenreich, and basically refers to the ‘class’ of technocrats and bureaucrats who keep society in order: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/on-the-origins-of-the-professional-managerial-class-an-interview-with-barbara-ehrenreich/
I would like to point out that isn't true of all people, because there are plenty of so called stars who chose to leave the limelight and plenty of so called rock stars who never left a legacy of excess (Jon Bon Jovi as an example). I believe it is a combination of the personality of the person as well as any other factors such as childhood trauma and the like. I feel like people don't acknowledge that narcissism and psychopathy can happen without trauma ever happening. Look at Ted Bundy, He came from a good home with all the material resources that anyone could ever want, he went to an Ivy League school and became a lawyer. Even with all that going for him he still turned out to be a killer. Sometimes there isn't a reason why. I feel sometimes life is just unpredictable and some people can just be bad people without having a neat explanation.
Thanks Donovan for your comment. Yes it is complex and i tried here to highlight an inceased risk in the famous - not so much a prediction that all have this kind of blind spot or weakness. Yes there will also be genetics. And i am not trying to excuse perpetrator behaviour. If we decide that some people are just bad, with only nature and no nurture, then we have to find another way to figure out why the entertainment industry can be so good at attracting dramatic perpetrator behaviour.
I think its risky to say that if someone grows up materially wealthy, and even with the family in tact, and a good school, that this means emotionally, they are not traumatised. I think there are people from wealthy backgrounds who would challenge this idea. I havent read about Ted Bundy. But another comment recently mentioned that untill he was a teenager, he was led to believe his mother was actually his sister. This doesnt sound like a typical childhood. But i would be interested to learn more about him.
Yes - I think narcissists have to some degree become acceptable to be demonised but also bear their own pain . Will let you know when it’s out
I’ve spent 20 years working in prisons with men who had committed the most serious violent and sexually violent crimes and who were considered to be psychopaths and not met one who had a normal upbringing. What we did find is that men were much slower to disclose their vulnerabilities than women and questions had to be asked in quite open, emotionally neutral ways to elicit the information. We compared what we knew on arrival and what we knew after they’d established relationships with a trauma informed therapist and found significantly different histories. It’s submitted for publication but in a nutshell it’s preferable to ask questions like “what would happen when you did something wrong as a child?” Rather than “were you physically abused?” . Most people, and especially perhaps narcissists, want to believe that their parents loved them as children so it’s preferable to present their family and upbringing as good and loving than to acknowledge that they “weren’t lovable” (the child’s perspective)
Thanks Octopus Psychology. Really helpful having expert responses and comparisons on here. Thats really interesting. The difficulty with saying “I was abused” betrays a difficulty perhaps with self compassion - connecting to own vulnerability. Saying what happened might be easier than saying you were hurt. It is unpopular in mainstream discussions to say that narcissism contains a lack of compassion for self as well as others, but psych theories tend to say otherwise. Your paper sounds interesting and practically helpful. Let me know when its out.
Thanks!